Transcript of ultimatum meeting as recorded by EL Survivor woman
Recording made by EL- Survivor Woman
one hour long
Ultimatum from Isaac to EL
Nelson BC 2012
Prepared and translated by Rosemary Cruzado
Were present:
ID=Isaac Dawson (one of the top leaders responsible in the Community in Nelson, British Colombia, Canada)
EL-EL Survivor Woman
SM=Shai Massot, husband of EL and member of the 12 T
Levah, woman member of the 12 T
X, top leader of the 12 T in Nelson
Starts at 3mns29s.
ID-in English: We can speak as much as we can
ID-in English and addressing EL: EL, we understand that things haven’t been going too well for you
ID-in French and addressing EL: Things are not going well in your marriage. And we want to help you with that….incomprehensible…..we see that it is between you two. You are able to follow the love of God and have a relationship that works well and you can do it. We, on our side, want to give some space to do that. But at the same time we have a household for which there are ways applicable to visitors as well as anyone who has been living here for 40 years . We do things together. We realise you do not want to do as we do.
ID- in English translating for the rest: I am saying to her that we want to help their relationship but we don’t know how apart of the word of God which says that man needs to rules over his wife and she will submit to him. It’s the basic principal but there needs to be you know what…and I told her that we have rules for our life, our culture.
ID-addressing EL all in French from there onwards:We see you doing what you want to do on one hand and do what we do on the other hand. The question is now: What do you want to do now, we say you have to make a decision. If you are going to stay here you are going to follow the things we do. This is a church and we have rules that apply to everyone: the elderly as well as children. Everyone comes to the meetings, the minchot, morning and evening. What we say to you is….incomprehensible….and all that.
But what do you think about all that? Anything to say about the situation you see. Right now the solution to this situation….
EL: The solution?
ID: In my time in the Body (Body of Messiah), it’s been 30 years, I have never, ever seen someone work outside, never. We want to give some space to find… I know the culture is different, the country is different and our culture is different. And also you are married. And it hasn’t been long you are married. We want to give some space to follow…so you would find a way to live together. But we see that you see very far…incomprehensible….far, far, far you don’t come to see….incomprehensible…At the moment you…incomprehensible…I have heard that you don’t have unity with him, something…you don’t have the same faith…
EL: Pardon me?
ID: Why don’t you come to our meetings, morning and evenings? Do you have a reason?
EL: I already have said that for me there is nothing contradictory that bothers me
ID-addressing SM in English: Can you translate?
EL: I do not agree to this (what I say being translated to English for the rest). Everyone has their own way to understand things. I haven’t seen anything that…because it is a question of calling. If you are not called you can do what you want. No one can say otherwise, no one can tell you how to live because you have to be called to this life. I respect the calling of my husband. And I say that…I have accepted. But I am told all the time that I am not saved. And this has bothered me lately.
I was hungry and I had a headache and if I don’t eat very soon I will get stomach aches or ulcers or something of that nature. I experience these sorts of ailments. And my husband refused to let me eat 1 hour before dark. I was trying to respect what he was saying, but if I don’t eat my body would react, it is a pain. I know enough about health, I know what I feel. And so I adapted to this and instead of saying I am hungry I just asked if he could fetch me some cows milk to satisfy me a little.
ID: That time…
EL: That time because I was hungry but I did not say I was hungry. I only asked him for some milk.
ID: Yes
EL: I don’t know if you remember this
ID to EL: Pardon me…
ID addressing the rest in English: she is asking about the meals
EL: And I waited and waited until past 8 pm and I said” “I’m hungry” and he replied that I needed to get saved. What? I’m hungry. I need to be saved, why? Because I am hungry. This is becoming increasingly annoying.
ID: Who is annoying?
EL: You! Because every time that I am absent from your assemblies you pray behind my back and if I am present you refrain from doing so. Because you feel you are on the inside and you can say what you please. And I say I’m hungry and I am told I need to be saved.
So what’s the problem. OK so I am not saved and I can’t have this nor that. This is becoming very embarrassing. Not sure of how to say this. This is not good. He is lucky that I am not a Muslim because Muslims are ready to do anything to defend their faith. They get their heads chopped off to defend their faith.
ID: But what we say to you tonight is: this is between you two.
EL: Why is that?
ID: But we say you need to come every morning and every evening, you need to keep the Sabbath here with us. You need to do what we do here. You need to eat what we eat. There is no space for 2 classes. One class who does as they please, go where they please and another class who eats what they have to eat. Everyone does the same. This is what we want to talk about tonight.
Your marriage, that is between you two, between you two. Because this is our household and that of your husband and we have the same mind on how to live our lives. And we are never going to change, we won’t change for anyone. If we change this we would become as everybody else. This is what it’s like in the world. People come, people go, leave, eat what they want, where they want. And we will as in an apartment block where everyone does as they please. And that is THE WORLD. Not the world as just the world but THE WORLD. If you love THE WORLD and the things of the world the love of God is not in you. We have certain things we are still dealing with but the things of THE WORLD that we are not interested in. We live together, we work together, we eat together, we pray together, we work together…everything together.
If someone is interested in our life they will do as we do. But I know that you have never made that decision, to live this life. It is obvious and we respect that. At the same time you are married to him, he is your head and he has his beliefs. And you don’t have to share his beliefs but you have to do as he does. If you don’t believe you can live with us but you have to do as we do.
One cannot work outside nor take trips and leave when they please. They would do the same as we do while living with us.
We had the hope you would believe as your husband believes and that this is our hope. But this rests on you, and we cannot force anyone, but you have to do as we do. And so we say you have to have dinner with us, go to the gatherings, you have to do as your husband does. That’s all. You know it’s is the community saying that, not your husband. And do you agree with that?
I see that he has given you space but we say it cannot continue that way. Because if you do what you want children can see that and everyone will think they can do as they please. No, we are asking you to do what God says to do. You see in the Bible it talks about everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. We have given you space to believe what you want to believe but here you do as we do. You believe what you want but you do as we do. This out of respect for the household and also your husband. This is how it works.
EL: This is difficult
ID: Yes the way is hard, the way is narrow, this is the way to enter the Kingdom of God.
EL: What you are asking me, to stop going to my work and to stop going to my religious assemblies and to stop doing trips and also to eat what you eat. All very good and easy to say. It is easily said but it is difficult to understand the other person.
ID: To understand the other? How? To understand the other in what way?
EL: To understand me.
SM in English to ID: It’s easier said than done
EL: It is easily said but it is difficult to understand the other person.
SM in English to ID: It is easy to say but it is hard to understand the position of the other person.
ID: That is why we gave you time…how long have you been here, six months, we have given you space. I have never seen such leeway given to anyone. And after six months we can see you take more freedom, more and more freedom. So we say…people are talking about it, they say: why is this happening in the community, why is she able to do as she pleases? No one does that!
EL: And why does it bother you?
ID: Because we are all together here
EL: But why does it bother you, this is a spiritual call that you have been called to, why does it bother you?
ID: It is a free spirit that…! it is a way that…! Imagine the children here, growing up here and they see someone who does as they please and they say to themselves: “And why do I need to respect the elders, my parents, even God? There is no standard, it is a double standard!
EL: OK
ID: Do you understand?
EL: I understand what you are saying, I understand, but you have to teach your children it is not man you have to follow
SM – in English: It is not man you have to follow
EL: and you have to educate them that way…incomprehensible…because yes, it is the duty of the parents to do so.
ID: But there is the way of Abraham, it is one way, the way of Abraham, it is one way, not two ways. It is one way and we want our children to follow in the same way, the way we have chosen, the way of Abraham.
EL: I see yes, I see everything you tell me Isaac but I say: all this is easy to say but it is difficult to understand the other person. I understand your concerns, I understand, it’s not like I don’t have a brain, I understand your concerns. I think about it, I think a lot, but what you ask of me is difficult.
ID: Yes I know
EL: It is truly difficult. It is difficult to stop my job, stop travelling. When I travelled I took the opportunity do do things. I was treating someone who has cancer, I looked for products to treat this person. You see, it is easy to say to not do this and to not do that but what is the intention (of the person you are saying that to). I was able, I knew how to help this person and you have stopped me from helping. It is hard for me because what I am doing is not for money, I do not have a personal interest in it, it was for free. But you stopped me and this is why I say to you: it is easy to say but it is hard to understand the other.
ID: But here we follow the Gospel from Jesus and the Gospel from Jesus says: You follow your husband and it says: You leave your family, leave, leave, come and follow me. This is the hope we have, that you would follow Jesus. This is the call made to you right now. You need to follow your husband. This is the way. This is the only way to have eternal life. And there are no other ways. It is one way, not six ways.
EL: Everything you are saying I hear…incomprehensible…This is the same thing I hear…look it was Peter or James and disciples were called to see Jesus. And Jesus, Yahshua, when he was on the cross he said: Mother, take care of my brother, brother, take care of my mother for me. You see what you worry about…incomprehensible…that God does. I understand what you are saying, I understand everything.
ID: But also it says (in the Bible) that Jesus, Yahshua put a knife through the heart of his mother, it says it there and he did it, to put a sword in the heart of his mother
EL: And what is that?
ID: the sword is the Good News of Jesus. And one time the mother of Jesus was at the door and was talking with the disciples and wanted to see her son. And his mother was knocking at the door with his brothers. And Jesus said:”Who is my mother, who are my brothers?Those who do the will of God, these are my mother, those are my brothers.” And this was the sword in the heart of his mother when Jesus said: You are not my mother, you are my mother when you do the will of God.
It is the same here: He is the brother, the sister, the husband, the father, the mother him who does the will of God. That is the spiritual family, not the blood family. But if someone who is of same blood does the will of God then he is a true brother, truly a sister, truly a mother, truly a father, etc…This has happened in the past. But they have received the blow and this is the question for everyone: Will they take the blow?
EL: I am terribly sorry,…long incomprehensible part…this is not my thing
ID: Yes we understand but he (Shai) has decided to follow Yahshua, this is his first love in his heart
EL: What?
EL: When you follow Yahshua that will never change. If you want to follow Yahshua, good. If you don’t you still need to do as we do here. We say this, the elders of the community and the Body of Messiah who says so.
EL: And so what are you going to do with me?
ID: We’ll do what we do
EL: If I don’t manage to do what you are asking of me…as I said it is easy to say but difficult to understand the other. If I don’t manage, because this is hard.
ID: I know
EL: If I don’t marry the brothers what will happen?
ID: We’ll have to discuss that
EL: This is hard
ID: I know and I say that with respect. And what I ask is not just of you, or of one person or another, this is for everyone. It is the same for everyone. And I know, the sword comes to everyone.
EL: It is not easy, you say it like that, but it is not easy.
ID:But the Messiah says it is not easy.
EL: But it is my job. I am used to eat certain things for 30 years and all of a sudden I have to get used to eat things I have never eaten before.
ID: You can do this
EL:…and I try to eat but I see things could be changed a bit to suit my taste.
ID:NO! WE, listen well: we don’t eat what is according to our taste, we eat to live
EL: I understand but…
ID: It is not possible
EL: I have tried to eat what I have never eaten before in my life.
ID: Imagine that someone comes and says: I don’t like this, I don’t like that, that is complaining. You are not different (you can’t complain), you can do this (to not complain and accept everything in front of you).
EL: I know, you know there is something, have you heard of manioc?
ID: What?…oh yes
EL: When I eat it I react. My parents know this, that I cannot eat that. There are things, in Africa even, for example gombo
ID: I don’t eat that
EL: I cannot eat this and it is my dad’s favourite meal.
ID: and you cannot eat…(and addressing the others in English he makes fun): and she cannot eat her gombo!…ahahaha!
EL: at home
ID: Yes I know
EL: It’s not that I don’t like my dad
ID: I know that there are youths who don’t like vegetables and one doesn’t like this and another doesn’t like that. If we live like that we will be like everybody else. Everyone will make their own lunch and their own dinner and eat in his own corner. We eat well here and you are capable of eating what we eat.
EL: yes, but there are things that…and it is not my fault (laughing with the others)
ID: It is not a matter of fault, it is a question of incomprehensible
EL: They are listening and it makes me laugh, excuse me
ID: When you get up in the morning you do what we do, you come to the meeting, you work, you eat what we eat, you keep the Sabbath together, you do as we do.
EL: Yes, I really get it! But can I ask you something please?
ID: yes
EL: It is hard
ID: I know
EL: I just ask of you that you would please keep your faith firm and in what you believe do not let anyone shake you, that no one would shake your faith. But about the children, because you are adults already. It is the same for me, my father travels a lot and he is hardly home. I am with my mum…incomprehensible…if my father comes for the Sabbath…with me a word is enough. I do not need my father telling me to do everything, constantly on my back to do the will of God.
ID: When you were a child?
EL: Nowadays…incomprehensible…education in a personal way. With children you have to be mature yourself and when you have a child you know how to raise that child in the love of God.
ID: We believe that a child has to turn his heat towards the heart of his father. Each family has a head and that is the father. And the child needs both, the father and the mother.
EL:Yes
ID: Incomprehensible
EL: But it is hard. Because when it comes to faith it is not something you can force on anyone.
ID: But we don’t force anyone. But at the same time, when you live in our house you listen, in the meetings you hear our faith.
EL: yes I hear, you’re right, you are perfectly right. But if there are problems with me it is because you believe that you love better than others. That is the way it is. Because I do cause problems here. And you believe you love more than other people.
ID: NO!
EL: and this and that, it is very critical and about clothing and all that, it is very discouraging. I am not worried about all that personally
ID: God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, he will never change
EL: but there are problems and we hear that Christians are this and Christians do that. Not all Christians are to blame
ID: It is the Christian system
EL: Me, I am different, you say that all Christians…it is not all Christians…you criticise all Christians and this has been bothering me and I find discouraging.
ID: The only thing we say is that you need to follow our way of life
El: Also it is winter and I am tired as I need to wake up at night-time and I feel tired.
ID: Tired of what?….do you need to sleep?
EL: no, not now. I wake up every morning, very early in the morning every day. I need to get in your truck to go to work at the cafe and after to work
ID to SM in English: what is she talking about?
SM in English: She says that to work everyday it makes you tired.
ID: you were happy working at home and doing what we do. Now you come and go to the cafe and you are a good worker, you are capable.
EL: and why is my husband giving me a hard time? Because he does, he says unpleasant things to me just because I want to eat…
ID: But this will stop, if you do as we do, it will stop
EL: and around me all the time I hear comments criticising me, insults
ID: Hasn’t this changed in the last 2 weeks?
EL: No, hasn’t changed
ID: But I have a question…incomprehensible…
EL: it’s hard
ID: incomprehensible…but we will be happy when you do as we do. Stop fighting, you need to follow Messiah, in the footsteps of your husband. You go up when he goes up, you do as he does.
EL: Nice, but I cant leave my work’
ID: No?
EL: I cannot stop going to church
ID: No?
EL: I can stop eating what I…I can try again but to stop me from doing certain things…
ID: Going to church?
EL: What you say here they say the same things over there
ID: Yes, what?
EL: YES, it is the same thing!
ID: But you have to chose between the two things, are you able to drink from two different cups at the same time?
EL: No!
ID: Well that is what you are doing at the moment, you are drinking from two cups at the same time and this cannot be
EL: I feel more at ease at my church
ID: Yes
EL: Because I already know the hymns, I get to participate
ID: I want to say something: you like this church because they let you do what you want
EL: No, I didn’t say that, people…
ID, interrupting EL: eh, eh, just ask me…
EL: I like the music, I participate, here I don’t even have the hymns’ words written to sing what you sing with you. And everyday you insult Christians and in front of my husband and if I go to church he is going to insult me. You are all of the same mind
ID: If we allow people to do what they want we would be as the churches. In churches everyone does their own thing, not God’s will.
EL: but the way is free
ID: but here it is not like that
EL: So you force people
ID: No, but you see in the Bible it speaks of the way, it is not a wide way but a narrow one. Our Master says so, that the way which leads to death is wide but narrow is the way which leads to life. He says that in Matthew 7, is this true or not?
EL: Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life but wide is the way that leads to death and many are those who are on it. You see I can quote too because this verse is quoted of at my church also.
ID: YES THEY SAY THAT BUT DO THEY WALK THEIR TALK?
EL: Well yes, but (according to you) there is no faith (in my church), there is no faith here, there is no faith there, no faith in Islam. Here in a country of white people if couples don’t have children it is not a problem but in Africa if God is willing he can perform a miracle, in Africa we have proverb…
ID: In English, you can speak English, speak English, what were you saying about Africa, in English
Levah in English: We want to understand you
EL: Shai didn’t want to keep his child here, he didn’t want to, I do not want to worry about it
ID: But for now…
EL, interrupting: it’s all good, I already have my child, you find that strange?
ID: yes
EL: I will provide
ID, addressing Shai in English: She will provide?
EL: YES, FOR SURE!
ID addressing the rest in English: He doesn’t do it, why would she?
ID, addressing EL back in French: You do as we do
EL: yes, I will, but now straight away. And you say that Christians are not good
ID: We only say that people are trapped in a false religious system.
We love people!, we love you!
EL: This is not love, there is no peace
ID: Jesus said to the Jews that their system was evil and he turned the tables and told them they were condemned. It is a house of money. He says that. So you see in the Christian system they have money falling to the ground, the system of Vatican, in Rome and there are poor people, so poor they have nothing to eat and they believe in God
EL: And I do these things, do I?
ID: No, I am talking about the system, there are rich and poor in the same system.
EL: God said that rich people should take care of the poor. He says for people to work and what they have in excess they can help meet the needs of others.
ID: In the true church they are no rich, nor poor
EL: God has made it this way, there are rich and there are poor
ID: In the house of God, Israel…
EL, interrupting: Solomon was rich, a millionaire!
ID: But we look after you, all you needs are met.
EL: Ok, there is a passage in the Bible that talks about giving your excess to the poor. I can find the verse. I understand really well.
ID: But when you are with us you do as we do, you eat as we eat
EL: What about (if I cook and) if I put to much chilli, who will eat that? Am I going to force people to eat too much chilli?
ID: but we don’t cook too spicy here do we?
EL: I have a headache
ID in English: you are going to go to bed and sleep on it and give me an answer, give your husband an answer.
ID in French: I love you very much
EL: No, you don’t because you don’t come to understand me
ID: I am not as smart as you but it is the truth, the word of God, the good way which is a narrow way. I want you to be on our side.
EL: Everything you say, it is the same thing we say over there
ID: But do they walk their talk?
EL: So what now, how do I walk? Why do you insult me?
ID: Who insulted you? Me?
EL: Yes of course
ID: No!
EL: Not directly, indirectly
ID: you speak of Christians
EL: I am raised as one
ID: incomprehensible
Recording stopped here
END OF TRANSCRIPT OF RECORDING
TRANSCRIPT WAS OF INTEGRALITY OF RECORDING. ONLY MISSING ARE WORDS AND SEVERAL SENTENCES WHICH WERE UNINTELLIGEABLE.